It also seems a bit early in the offseason to conclude that Hardy would not bring a pitcher of any value. Has the world series ended yet?
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SoCalBrewfan |
#161 | |||
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The defense is a big deal, to be sure. Melvin didn't seem to care about defense a while back but seems to have seen the light in that respect...Cameron was
a great asset with the glove, and if the team had decided to move on Gomez is one of the few guys who can step in to Cameron's shoes defensively. It's
just hard to feel good about a guy with that offensive profile...and particularly it's hard to construct a lineup with offensive players who have a lot of
improving yet to do while another year of Fielder's contract ticks away.
It also seems a bit early in the offseason to conclude that Hardy would not bring a pitcher of any value. Has the world series ended yet? |
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Fatter than Joey |
#162 | |||
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That is because Brewer fans over value Hardy way way way to much
Brewer fans probably overvalue all of their players. That said, would you have traded JJ Hardy for Gomez at any point in 2007 or 2008? Probably not. We sold low on Hardy. I think Melvin played JJ Hardy rather poorly from start to finish |
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The Truth |
#163 | |||
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Talked with my buddy who is a hardcore Twins fan. He's not happy about this trade at all. Thought the Twins could get alot more for Gomez. Says Gomez has
tons of potential. Thinks JJ is a very streaky very overrated player...
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bklynbrewcrew |
#164 | |||
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Maybe we now sign Lackey to a huge deal but even that is a major risk considering Lackey has had arm problems and has tons of tread on the tires. I thought
Melvin was supposed to be a statistical GM. There is nothing in Gomez' career numbers to suggest he will be even avaerage offensively.
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trwi7 |
#165 | |||
Stevo wrote: Melvin wants two pitchers. Would it shock anybody if we spent the $14 million we saved on Washburn and Davis? |
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nate82 |
#166 | |||
YoungGeezy wrote: Webb's option was picked up he is not a free agent the same with Beckett. The Braves are about to extend Hudson so he isn't a free agent either. Cliff Lee has a very reasonable option left and the Phillies would be stupid not to extend him so he is not available. That leaves Bedard (unlikely to be ready for the first opening months of the season), Harden (the best pitcher of the bunch), Sheets (see Harden), Duchscherer (soft tosser and coming off an injury like Bedard and Sheets. Harden is also very injury prone), and Washburn (Left Handed version of Suppan and Looper). Others available are Garland, Vazquez and Lowe (both Lowe or Vazquez could be had in a trade).
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sheethead |
#167 | |||
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We sold low on Hardy. I think Melvin played JJ Hardy rather poorly from start to finish
I agree with this. And Melvin was not going to extend Hardy, so he had to go. There was no leverage on his side in any deal. Clubs knew Melvin needed to unload him, and it just so happened he sucked in 2009. At least Melvin is taking a chance on a player sucking at a position we have a need, instead of keeping Hardy and having him suck instead of playing Escobar.
Tanaka: You have no... you have no... marbles! You have no marbles!
Cerrano: Marbles? Huevos? |
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Fatter than Joey |
#168 | |||
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Would it shock anybody if we spent the $14 million we saved on Washburn and Davis?
I am thinking Sheets+Davis |
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YoungGeezy |
#169 | |||
The Truth wrote:That's why everyone not a Brewer fan or Twin fan thinks it is a good even trade. Im happy with it and like the added 14 million
BrewCrewWS2008 seemed to be a little outdated so decided to change it up a bit
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thebruce44 |
#170 | |||
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What about a move like taking on Harang and a prospect with the salary we saved. This move could potentially be much more detailed than just JJ+Cam vs
Gomez+Escobar. Right now it is JJ+Cam vs Gomez+Escobar+14 mil. Wait to see what happens with that 14 mil before you tar and feather Melvin. He is a GM for a
reason and you are just posting on the internet.
TheShirtAlert.com: Shirts/Hoodies/Longsleeves about movies/tv/sports. New site now up. Brewers section open here!
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battlekow |
#171 | |||
trwi7 wrote:Exactly. The money saved only matters if Melvin does something intelligent on it, rather than Suppan 2: Junkball Boogaloo. Besides, ~$10M of that is Cameron's presumed salary for next year (assuming he'd re-sign for about what he was paid this year), something entirely independent of trading J.J. Hardy for Carlos Gomez, given that the Brewers already have another center fielder at least as good as Gomez on the roster in Jody Gerut. |
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The Truth |
#172 | |||
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I agree that Melvin would have gotten a much higher return on Hardy if he had traded him last off-season. Thats my biggest knock on Melvin, he doesn't time
things well with his own players on occasion (Hardy, Hall).
Hindsight is 20/20 though |
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Mr QL |
#173 | |||
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Big freaking deal we saved money that we can use to sign "2 pitchers" with. Like who? What big pitcher is out there let alone two that we have a
realistic chance at signing? I prefer we don't spend a bunch on pitching because I don't want to be stuck with another Suppan. We should of just kept
Tony Gwyn Jr.
SHOUSE
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RobDeer 45 |
#174 | |||
bklynbrewcrew wrote:Dude, where would Hardy have played? He was garbage last year. We would never have gotten a good pitcher for Hardy. You're living in a dream world if you think that. For us to be succesful we need youg scrappy guys to fill most of our postion spots and build around starting pitching. We can't expect to be able to have high priced FA's everywhere. It just won't work for our market size. |
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YoungGeezy |
#175 | |||
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this reminds me a lot of the Melky Cabrara for Cameron thing last year that almost went down except I like Gomez potenial a lot more
BrewCrewWS2008 seemed to be a little outdated so decided to change it up a bit
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And That |
#176 | |||
Stevo wrote:This isn't exactly true... we saved whatever Hardy would have made in arbitration minus whatever Gomez will make in arbitration. The decision on Cameron is at least a partially separate issue. Having Gomez on the roster does not by itself preclude Cameron from being on the roster also. I know Melvin said they wouldn't pursue Cameron this offseason, but it wouldn't be the biggest waste of resources to have Cameron back and let Gomez work on things in AAA for a year. |
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bklynbrewcrew |
#177 | |||
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The Brewers must have really soured on Lorenzo Cain if they think Gomez is the CF of the future.
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The Truth |
#178 | |||
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The words that scare me in Melvin's quotes are that he now has money to "spread around". With Melvin's track record that sounds like a bunch
of Suppan/Johnny Estrada types
Junk plus junk plus Prince Fielder plus Ryan Braun plus more junk plus exciting young players = lots of media hype and an 80 win season |
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MJLiverock |
#179 | |||
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I'm not going to pick out individual posts but I disagree with a number of the thoughts supporting this trade.
1. JJ Hardy wasn't going to bring a #2 pitcher --- no kidding, but there is no rule that the Brewers can only trade 1 for 1, Hardy could have been packaged with other prospects to get a better ML pitcher or AA+ pitcher with upside. The team is still trying to figure out what to do with McGhee and Gamel, and one of the minor league catchers on top of it not even being winter meetiings yet, it is only the 2nd day of the offseason. I can't believe there were so many teams after Gomez that Melvin couldn't have waited a few weeks to try and work out something better that included some pitching. 2. The step down from Cam to Gomez isn't much - - Gomez has over 1100 PA in the majors and a career OBP of .292 with his most recent season being .287, not showing improvement yet. Cameron has put up an OBP of .342 in his most recent year and can pretty much be penciled in for .340 while slugging at a much higher level than Gomez. For all the strikeout haters that like to rip on Cameron; Gomez strikes out nearly as much but without any power whatsoever or ability to actually get on base. 3. Gomez and Escobar bring speed - - Gomez is 74% succesfull on SB's so right around the break even level but as in #2 you can't steal first base. The team also doesn't run very much anyway and unless Macha is going to change his philosophy speed won't matter all that much. 4. Had to save money by letting Cam walk and needed to fill CF -- Who is Melving going to spend the money on? The free agent crop isn't that great for pitchers and the trade chips are dwindling for taking on a good MLer with a higher salary. Signing guys like Washburn, Davis, Pinerio might very well be Suppan v2.0. Gerut can play CF with a platoon mate and if Gomez is that platoon mate than Melvin really got fleeced trading Hardy for a platoon player. After 2010 Cain may just as ready to match Gomez's output anyway without trading Hardy. 5. Gomez was a top prospect and part of the Santana deal - - the key word is was. Baseball is littered with guys who were top prospects who didn't pan out. Many thought the Twins got fleeced in the Santana deal to begin with. Gomez has done nothing in 1100 ML PA's so that toolsy upside is starting to wear thin and comparisons to a cetain Lastings Milledge may start to appear. I just don't see anyway this is an improvement for the Brewers by downgrading their offense this much and not improving the pitching one bit. They have some money to spend but after seeing this deal on top of Melvin's track record with pitching I have next to zero confidence he will improve the team with it. |
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Stevo |
#180 | |||
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Gomez is already better than Gwynn and actually has potential. As multiple people have mentioned, the Brewers aren't limited to just free agents. I think
Aaron Harang is a good example of someone they could add without giving up too much in a trade--just take on his whole salary.
"I started getting good and he continued to mess my hair up, so I started cutting my own hair." -Mark DiFelice."
B.B.K.T.U.T.H. (Blog) |
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