There was a large hue and cry this spring about how Brad Nelson, Casey McGehee and Chris Duffy had clearly won jobs with their spring performance over
veterans like Lamb and Nixon. They were so impressive in Arizona, that everyone dismissed even considering bringing in proven veterans like Catalonatto,
Jenkins, etc. who were out there to be had for minimum salaries.
Well 2 weeks in, Duffy, Nelson and McGehee are combined 1 for 16. Two of the players they back up, Fielder and Braun, are in horrific slumps but one can
hardly blame Macha for not sitting them down a game or two when all he has to replace them with are unproven players.
The fact is Nelson and McGehee aren't well suited to be strictly pinch hitters. That's a job on the major league level that is better handled by a
veteran like Lamb. Duffy is not a bad 5th OF, but he's hardly better than Gwynn or any number of guys.
0 Kudo
Inexperienced bench gives Macha few options
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 JohnBriggs12 |
Inexperienced bench gives Macha few options |
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Posts: 6031 April 20, 2009 9:51 AM |
Last Edited By: support May 29, 2009 9:39 PM.
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 Invader3K |
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Posts: 4639 April 20, 2009 9:54 AM |
I guess I don't see what alternative you're advocating. Do you really want to see them bring in Jenkins to make spot starts for Braun? I just think
most people know that Jenkins is too streaky to be effective in a pinch hitting/spot start kind of role.
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rluzinski |
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Posts: 16538 April 20, 2009 10:03 AM |
The problem isn't that they are inexperienced. The problem is that they aren't very good hitters. And bringing in "proven veterans"
who've proven they can't hit isn't going to fix that. I certainly don't want guys like Fielder and Braun losing playing time over players who
have proven that they suck.
Jenkins and Lamb? Good gief. |
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Ennder |
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Posts: 7410 April 20, 2009 10:08 AM |
I'm sure Lamb would have won 6 games for us alone, sorry but Lamb just isn't a good player anymore and even though he is a gritty old veteran that
doesn't change how he would do in PH situations. Jenkins was terrible last year for the phillies, Lamb was terrible for the twins, being a veteran
doesn't magically make them good bench players. The sample size you are using is way too small to try to give a good old "I told you so" at this
point.
Sure we could have say Gross(.458 OPS) or Kapler(.544 OPS) instead, that would make things better I'm sure! The reason Macha doesn't have many options is because our bench is significantly weaker at hitting than our starters and he won't PH for Kendall. So he just PHs for the pitcher pretty much and that is it.
Last Edited By: Ennder April 20, 2009 10:14 AM.
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Fatter than Joey |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 7180 April 20, 2009 10:16 AM Pure Yostian Hatred |
I am glad that Nelson has finally the chance to get some non-Sept. ABs. He may end up ultimately sucking -- but I guess I'd like to see what he could do in
some spot starts and PHing for Kendall and some pitchers.
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joepepsi |
#5 | |||
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Posts: 2499 April 20, 2009 10:18 AM |
They need to play more. The problem for them, this is a team 3 years running with a set lineup of young talented starters who don't get injured much.
Yesterday would have been a perfect time to rest Prince, but with the off day today, there wasn't a need to do that. As the season goes on I hope Nelson
and McGehee get some regular opportunities to play, not just pinch hit. I think it's fairly typical for teams to spend the first few weeks of the season
with pretty set lineup.
"We're the big-big-wowowow-look-how-far-i-can-hit-a-ball-moron-brewers. It's our identity".--
holybannana 7/31//08
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naivin |
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Posts: 2420 April 20, 2009 11:32 AM |
I agree with much of what has been said here. In general, I am a fan of having veterans on the bench. However, whether we are talking about Nelson and Mcgehee,
or Lamb and Jenkins, at this point, that's all they are..guys on the bench, because they are not going to get starts in front of Braun or Fielder because
those two aren't hitting on April 19th (or August 19th for that matter.).
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BrewCrewIn2004 |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 8968 April 20, 2009 5:12 PM |
Duffy is not a bad 5th OF, but he's hardly better than Gwynn or any number of guys.
You would really rather have Gwynn then Duffy? They bring the same tool set except I would say Duffy is a little better hitter. At least Duffy can drive the ball a little bit. |
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JoeHova |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 5889 April 20, 2009 5:32 PM |
This is bizarre to me. A bench of Nixon, Lamb, and Gwynn would somehow give Macha more options? In what way? With each bench (the real one and the theoretical
one), the only option is "leave them on the bench as much as possible." I don't think outfielders or 1st basemen ever really need a day off. Mike
might need a little rest because he's getting old, but it shouldn't be much (10 games off all year, maybe?) Middle infielders probably could use 1
every couple weeks and catchers can use one every week. Kendall needs more than one per week because he is terrible and his backup is better than he is, but
every other bench player (and spring training potential bench player) is clearly not even close to being the equal of the players they would replace. If Macha
wants to sit Prince, Braun, Hart, JJ, Rickie, and Mike more for some reason, he's probably the wrong man for the job.
"God Save Donald Duck"
- Ray Davies "I'm a lazy sod I'm a lazy sod I'm a lazy sod I'm so lazy" - Johnny Rotten |
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valpocrewsader |
#9 | |||
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Posts: 1862 April 20, 2009 7:10 PM |
We need a graph. Major league experience along the X axis, PH batting average along the Y. Or maybe difference between career non-PH and PH batting average
along the Y. I don't think it's an unreasonable theory that rookies or guys with limited experience in the big leagues might make worse pinch hitters
than their mediocre veteran counterparts.
Say with regular playing time McGehee and Lamb are both .250 hitters. I could say with certainty that if it's late in the game and we need a base hit, I'd much rather have the guy with 3,000 plate appearances step in there than the guy with 30. By a long shot. Wouldn't everyone here agree? But pinch hitting isn't the only reason you keep a guy on the roster. McGehee clearly has more upside and even has the ability to "break out" should he be called upon due to an injured or struggling Bill Hall. Defense enters in. Salary. I'm sure some other factors I'm not thinking of. I like that this thread brought up a different way to look at it, though.... "Way back, way gone, grand slam Ryan Braun." |
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dlk9s |
#10 | |||
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Posts: 1978 April 20, 2009 8:33 PM |
To be fair to Duffy, he has drawn a walk twice in the 9th inning when we were down by 1. On one of those, he ended up scoring the tying run.
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DHonks |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 11146 April 20, 2009 9:13 PM |
I really like our bench. As we get into the flow of the season, I expect Nelson to DH, play occasional 1st, LF and RF. I'd like to get him 200 at bats.
Duffy's a much better defender than Gwynn. |
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rluzinski |
#12 | |||
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Posts: 16541 April 20, 2009 10:47 PM |
I don't think it's an unreasonable theory that rookies or guys with limited experience in the big leagues might make worse pinch hitters than their
mediocre veteran counterparts.
It is not unreasonable. We already know that players perform worse on average in a part time role than while playing every day. It's certainly possible that veterans are better at playing sporadically than rookies. I've never seen it proven either way, however, and I'd be willing to guess it's a pretty small effect if it does exist. But really, I don't know. What I don't like is when people simply assume it's both true AND a significant effect, just because baseball lore says it is. I want evidence. |
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PrinceEatMeat |
#13 | |||
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Posts: 78 April 20, 2009 11:27 PM |
I've got no problems with Duffy. I don't see Nelson getting anywhere near 200 at-bats. Every ab he's had this year has been terrible. I just
don't see Macha sitting Braun, Hart, and Fielder more than a few games each. It's possible that Nelson may not even get 10 starts this year, and he
doesn't fit the mold of a pure pinch hitter. He needs to play at least semi-regualrly to be effective in my opinion. He's too inexperienced to be
effective in the role he will have on this team. Duffy is more multi-faceted. He can come in to pinch-run, pinch-hit, and play the field. He is a very good
defender, and is lightning fast. I think he benefits the team a lot more than Nelson does. Frankly, I see Counsell as the only bench player that will get any
decent time this year. He has already gotten a good number of starts, and he has produced. That's not a surprise at all. I don't see McGehee getting
much playing time either, except for possibly pinch hitting against lefties, which won't occur very often. Truthfully, I think we'll see Gamel come up
for McGehee before the year is over. I hope that Nelson can adjust to his role, but I see it taking quite awhile. It's not easy to get that few plate
appearances and be effective. Maybe he should get some tips from Mike Rivera.
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PrinceEatMeat |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 79 April 20, 2009 11:31 PM |
And as far as the rookie vs. veteran argument for bench players goes, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that veterans transition into that role. Most of
the veteran bench players were regulars at one point in their careers, which can make it easier to adjust to just being a bench player. A lot of times
composure and preparation are keys when it comes to being effective as a pinch-hitter. Rookies and younger players will likely struggle with this greatly.
I'm sure Nelson could adjust eventually, it will just take time. A veteran would likely be able to step in and produce quicker than he will be able to,
because he will have been there and done that before in his career. It's all about experience really. Many players would tell you that pinch-hitting is one
of the hardest things to do in baseball. It's not usually a job that teams want to give to rookies on a regular basis.
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viking188 |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 74 April 21, 2009 6:06 AM |
Wow! A whole page of discussion about the Brewers bench, and not one rip on Counsell! What a difference a year makes.
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BrewCrewIn2004 |
#16 | |||
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Posts: 8972 April 21, 2009 6:39 AM |
I would like Nelson to get DH AB's against RHP in American League parks.
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rluzinski |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 16542 April 21, 2009 6:41 AM |
Most of the veteran bench players were regulars at one point in their careers, which can make it easier to adjust to just being a bench player. A lot of
times composure and preparation are keys when it comes to being effective as a pinch-hitter. Rookies and younger players will likely struggle with this
greatly.
Most rookies were regulars at one point in their professional careers as well. As baseball fans, we are just conditioned to believe that the sport they play in the majors is somehow intrinsically different than the one they play in the minors. Really, everything you wrote above is what we hear from announcers and managers ad nauseam but I've never seem any clear evidence that it's true. That's really what this whole thread is about. There are good and bad, young and old bench players. At least with young bench players, they have the chance to improve and surprise. If you are an old bench player, it just means that you've already proven that you aren't good enough to start. While it wouldn't surprise me if veterans perform slightly better than rookies of comparable talent in a bench role, I've never seen any actual evidence that it's true. Just dogma. |
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viking188 |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 75 April 21, 2009 7:13 AM |
rluzinski; while I would agree to your point as it applies to defense; at the plate may be a different situation. As a manager, would you really want a player who has only seen AAA pitching going against a ML closer in a PH situation? |
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Ennder |
#19 | |||
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Posts: 7415 April 21, 2009 7:46 AM |
viking188 wrote:I would rather have Gamel PH for me than Mike Lamb. |
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viking188 |
#20 | |||
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Posts: 76 April 21, 2009 8:28 AM |
Which is why Gamel is on the 40 man roster and Lamb is, well not.
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