It would be nice if the starting pitcher went 7 more often

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mls4

It would be nice if the starting pitcher went 7 more often

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Posts: 1409

April 24, 2009 3:16 PM

Tags : gallardo, suppan, bush, parra, bullpen, sheets, rotation, history, looper

The bullpen wouldn't get so much criticism if the starters would go a bit deeper in games.

Yesterday Bush was the first Brewer starter to go 7 full innings this year, although the rotation did have 8 quality starts of 6 innings. (This was the 3rd from Bush, 2 from Gallardo, Looper and 1 from Parra and Suppan)

But this means we went 14 straight games without a 7-inning start, and it's only the 4th time in Brewer history that happened:

April 2004- went 19 games from the start of the season before Ben Sheets went 7 2/3 in a loss to St. Louis. Rotation consisted of Sheets (4 starts), Doug Davis (4), Matt Kinney (4), Wes Obermueller (3), and Chris Capuano (3) with Chris Saenz making a spot start.

Apr-May 1997- went 17 games between a Ben McDonald 7-inning start and a Cal Eldred 7-inning start. McDonald (3), Eldred (4), Scott Karl (4), Jeff D'Amico (4), Jose Mercedes (1), and Jamie McAndrew (1) made starts during that period.

May-June 1975- went 14 games between a complete game from Jim Colborn and a 7-inning start by Bill Castro. Colborn (2), Castro (1), Jim Slaton (3), Ed Sprague (2), Pete Broberg (3), Bill Travers (2), and Bill Champion (1) all started games during the streak.

Last Edited By: mls4 April 24, 2009 8:30 PM. Edited 2 times.

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AKA augie 46

#1

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Posts: 125

April 24, 2009 5:34 PM

I think that the 6-inning start is mislabled as a quality start. It is more of a minimally competent start. I think that 7 innings constitute a quality start. 3 innings of bullpen work usually requires 4 pitchers. 2 innings usally requires 2 pitchers. A lot less can go wrong in 2 innings of your best relief pitchers than 3 innings worth of 4 pitchers.

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Brewer Fever

#2

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Posts: 1692

April 24, 2009 8:25 PM

When these stretches occur after April that's when maybe I'd be a little more worried. Managers tend to err on the side of caution with pitch counts this early. Not to mention the incredible back-to-back starts just put up the past two days. That helps put things at ease as well.

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razzzorsharp

#3

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Posts: 2520

April 24, 2009 8:29 PM

I love the fact that Coffey is all rested up now from these past two starts.

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Invader3K

#4

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Posts: 4668

April 24, 2009 8:33 PM

Well, mls4's wish was granted.

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logan3825

#5

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May 3, 2009 11:05 PM

Bush with another 7 inning start today. Of course if you check the MLB leaders he is at the top of the league in HBP. The Mad Plumber returns.

Remember, fan is short for fanatic.

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topper09er

#6

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Posts: 53

May 4, 2009 9:26 AM

mls4 wrote:
The bullpen wouldn't get so much criticism if the starters would go a bit deeper in games.

Yesterday Bush was the first Brewer starter to go 7 full innings this year

?? I seem to remember Yo being left in to hit for himself in the bottom of the 7th when he hit a game winning HR and then pitching a scoreless 8th inning.

"I always thought the knuckleball was the easiest pitch to catch. Wait 'til it stops rolling, then go to the backstop and pick it up."

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kramnoj

#7

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May 4, 2009 9:45 AM

The post you are quoting is from April 24th. That game occurred April 29th.

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zzzmanwitz

#8

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May 4, 2009 10:01 AM

The bullpen wouldn't get so much criticism if the starters would go a bit deeper in games.

I decided to look at number of innings pitched by our starters compared to the rest of the NL.

Team	Games	IP	IP/G
Pittsburgh	24	148.667	6.19
Cincy	24	148.333	6.18
Arizona	25	151.333	6.05
St. Louis	25	149.333	5.97
Chicago	24	142.333	5.93
Milwaukee	25	147.000	5.88
San Fran	23	135.000	5.87
Atlanta	24	140.667	5.86
Florida	25	143.000	5.72
San Diego	25	139.333	5.57
Colorado	23	126.333	5.49
Los Angeles	26	142.333	5.47
Washington	23	124.667	5.42
New York	23	124.333	5.41
Philly	22	118.000	5.36
Houston	25	134.000	5.36

I have it sorted from most innings per game by SPs to least innings per game by SPs. Currently the Brewers are in the upper half of the NL.

This next table list is ranking the number of innings pitched by the bullpen per game, going from fewest to most. Again, it appears that the strain on the Bullpen hasn't been that great compared to the rest of the NL.

Team	Games	IP	IP/G
Pittsburgh	24	63.000	2.63
Cincy	24	63.667	2.65
Atlanta	24	70.333	2.93
Arizona	25	73.667	2.95
Milwaukee	25	74.667	2.99
St. Louis	25	75.000	3.00
Chicago	24	72.333	3.01
San Fran	23	70.667	3.07
Colorado	23	73.000	3.17
Florida	25	80.000	3.20
San Diego	25	81.000	3.24
Los Angeles	26	84.667	3.26
Washington	23	76.667	3.33
New York	23	78.000	3.39
Houston	25	88.000	3.52
Philly	22	80.000	3.64

Starting Pitchers - Pitches/Game

Team	Games	Pitches	Pitches/G
Washington	23	2032.000	88.35
Houston	25	2223.000	88.92
Colorado	23	2129.000	92.57
Los Angeles	26	2412.000	92.77
San Diego	25	2322.000	92.88
Philly	22	2054.000	93.36
Atlanta	24	2294.000	95.58
New York	23	2199.000	95.61
St. Louis	25	2397.000	95.88
Arizona	25	2399.000	95.96
San Fran	23	2208.000	96.00
Milwaukee	25	2409.000	96.36
Pittsburgh	24	2313.000	96.38
Florida	25	2435.000	97.40
Chicago	24	2338.000	97.42
Cincy	24	2407.000	100.29

Relief Pitchers - Pitches/Game

Team	Games	Pitches	Pitches/G
Pittsburgh	24	1066.000	44.42
Cincy	24	1082.000	45.08
St. Louis	25	1193.000	47.72
Arizona	25	1221.000	48.84
Milwaukee	25	1263.000	50.52
Los Angeles	26	1334.000	51.31
Colorado	23	1225.000	53.26
Atlanta	24	1281.000	53.38
San Fran	23	1279.000	55.61
New York	23	1288.000	56.00
Chicago	24	1377.000	57.38
San Diego	25	1439.000	57.56
Florida	25	1442.000	57.68
Washington	23	1349.000	58.65
Houston	25	1522.000	60.88
Philly	22	1406.000	63.91

COREY HART WEARS AWESOME AT NIGHT - TheMCG

Last Edited By: zzzmanwitz May 4, 2009 10:12 AM. Edited 1 time.

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trwi7

#9

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May 4, 2009 10:02 AM

Brewers' starters are now averaging 5.88 innings per start, that ranks 9th in the majors.

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mls4

#10

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May 4, 2009 10:22 AM

While I do not mind that my post has been revived, I may not have written the same things today that I did 10 days ago. The bullpen has not been used the same in the past 10 days.

However, I still think that 7 innings is a reasonable goal for a starting pitcher and that Brewer pitchers have not done it often enough. In 25 games, there have only been 5 starts of at least 7 innings. On the other hand, it's been 12 games since a pitcher had to come out before pitching at least 5 innings and that has only happened 4 times all season. A starting pitcher has not come out of the game before the 4th all season. So the bullpen at least has not had to cover a lot of innings that way.

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rluzinski

#11

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Posts: 16603

May 4, 2009 10:29 AM

The more pitches a starting pitcher throws and the more times a batter sees that pitcher, the more the advantage swings to the offense. I don't want guys like Looper and especially Suppan going deep into games very often, even if they have success early on. Managers make that mistake all the time. It could be a career 5.25 ERA starting pitcher but if he has had 6 good innings in a row, he'll trot him out there for the 7th. to face the top of the order, after already throwing 100 pitches.

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valpocrewsader

#12

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Posts: 1877

May 4, 2009 10:29 AM

mls4 wrote:
While I do not mind that my post has been revived, I may not have written the same things today that I did 10 days ago.

Yeah, it's not really fair to quote the OP and refute it with new information a week and a half later. (Perhaps that wasn't the intention, but that's what at least one of the posts above looked like.) In the last 10 games I calculate a 6.43 innings average for our starters. Dramatic improvement from where we were on April 24th when the thread was authored. Perhaps as much as a full inning.

"You combine the fact that they're good at everything and we're good at nothing, it's not going to be a very pretty outcome."

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rluzinski

#13

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May 4, 2009 10:48 AM

The initial post contained some interesting information but if it could change so muich after only 1 week, is was probably nothing to be worried about. The only thing worth getting too worried about in April are injuries and team record.

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Last Edited By: rluzinski May 4, 2009 11:00 AM. Edited 1 time.

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zzzmanwitz

#14

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May 4, 2009 10:52 AM

However, I still think that 7 innings is a reasonable goal for a starting pitcher and that Brewer pitchers have not done it often enough.

I think 7 innings is a good goal, but shouldn't be the expectation (especially in the NL). As you can see above, the NL leading team is averaging only 6.19 Innings per start. I think we should expect 5, be happy with 6, and rejoice with 7+.

COREY HART WEARS AWESOME AT NIGHT - TheMCG

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Ennder

#15

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Posts: 7511

May 4, 2009 10:56 AM

I want our pitchers to go 6 and then if the 7th inning starts out well finish 7. I don't believe an expectation of 7 innings is realistic anymore. Hitters just work the count too much and the lineups are too stacked to just lob it in there and let them hit it like in the past.

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mls4

#16

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Posts: 1430

May 4, 2009 11:35 AM

zzzmanwitz wrote:
I think 7 innings is a good goal, but shouldn't be the expectation (especially in the NL). As you can see above, the NL leading team is averaging only 6.19 Innings per start. I think we should expect 5, be happy with 6, and rejoice with 7+.

rluzinski wrote:
The more pitches a starting pitcher throws and the more times a batter sees that pitcher, the more the advantage swings to the offense. I don't want guys like Looper and especially Suppan going deep into games very often, even if they have success early on. Managers make that mistake all the time. It could be a career 5.25 ERA starting pitcher but if he has had 6 good innings in a row, he'll trot him out there for the 7th. to face the top of the order, after already throwing 100 pitches.

Good points-- I'm not necessarily expecting 7 innings every game, as long as the average is 6 innings that is probably not a problem, but my point is more about overusing the best bullpen arms. The more Coffey, Villanueva etc. are used, the more likely they give up runs and leads.Why was everyone so excited to get Scherzer out of the game the other day? Because we got to see middle relief, the weakest part of the pitching staff. Maybe Coffey et al. are better options than Suppan in the 7th inning, but not every game. Of course, if McClung and Julio prove to be reliable late-inning options and those arms can be rotated through, as well as DiFelice, I will likely be pleased with 6 innings.

rluzinski wrote:
The initial post contained some interesting information but if it could change so muich after only 1 week, is was probably nothing to be worried about.

Just to clarify, I wasn't worried. Though I did see bullpen overuse as a potential problem, the main intent of the post was the information.

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FVBrewerFan

#17

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Posts: 1224

May 4, 2009 3:26 PM

mls4 wrote:
However, I still think that 7 innings is a reasonable goal for a starting pitcher and that Brewer pitchers have not done it often enough.

Let's remember this doesn't take place in a vacuum. It's not as if the starter wasn't capable of going deeper into games this year, but they were pulled for a PH. That detrmines whther the SP gets an extra inning more than any other factor. If the Brewers were even a little above average in hitting w/RISP they wouldn't need a PH in the 6th inning so often.

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cubfan1126

#18

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Posts: 257

May 5, 2009 1:15 PM

Just face it - the game has changed.

This past Sunday Fergie Jenkins and Greg Maddux had their common number 31 retired by the Cubs.

From 1967 thru 1972 Fergie won 20 or more games each year.
During that span he averaged 306 innings innings pitched and 23.3 complete games.

How many of today's pitchers pitch more than 250 or 5 complete games?

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It would be nice if the starting pitcher went 7 more often

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