Not that we were extremely old or anything, but you subtract Kendall, Cameron, and Hardy and add Gomez, Lucroy, and Escobar to the everday line-up and we are
suddenly a very young team. That being said, I would still be somewhat shocked if Lucroy (or Salome) is our starting catcher to begin the season.
0 Kudo
JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez
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 wibadgers23 |
#341 | |||
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Posts: 1347 November 6, 2009 10:26 PM |
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reillymcshane |
#342 | |||
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Posts: 1283 November 6, 2009 10:29 PM |
wibadgers23 wrote:Melvin said that they are very seriously considering giving Lucroy the chance to win the catching job next year - talked about in the minor league forum: http://brewersfandemonium...u.com/topic/20147?page=6 |
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bobskube |
#343 | |||
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Posts: 1034 November 6, 2009 10:39 PM |
Stevo wrote:Hallelujah! |
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bobskube |
#344 | |||
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Posts: 1035 November 6, 2009 10:43 PM |
Invader3K wrote:Invader, again on the same page as you. Seems like last year all over again, huh? It is fun being the minority sometimes, isn't it? |
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bobskube |
#345 | |||
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Posts: 1036 November 6, 2009 10:48 PM |
brewmann04 wrote:I'll pass on them all. I think the Brewers are thinking bigger splash. We will see. |
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Ennder |
#346 | |||
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Posts: 8272 November 6, 2009 10:57 PM |
Hardy is not worth an epically bad trade. If anything, it may be a loss like the Doug Davis deal tops Davis was a mediocre SP, Hardy is a good SS. This comment makes no sense to me. Davis was a shrug, we can replace you relatively easily type deal, Hardy is harder to replace in general imo. Of course my opinion of Davis is probably much lower than yours, he is basically a Looper or Suppan to me. A bad pitcher who had a little luck with ERA a few times.
Last Edited By: Ennder November 7, 2009 6:20 AM.
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brewmann04 |
#347 | |||
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Posts: 4469 November 6, 2009 10:59 PM |
well i am still hoping for a blockbuster like King felix
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LouisEly |
#348 | |||
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Posts: 2288 November 6, 2009 11:24 PM |
JJ isn't going to fetch much. HE WAS SENT TO THE MINORS LAST YEAR! Teams know that he has no value for the Brewers so why would anyone give up
anything.
Bingo! I guess this saves 15 million if it means that Cameron isnt back next year. That has to be worth something. Bingo #2! Add in dumping Looper, Weathers, and Kendall and it is more like $26M. Add in Suppan and Hall after 2010 and it is $46M. That should buy you Prince plus two pitchers. If Jack had found us some pitching prospects maybe we would have been happy to get a bag of balls for a .200 hitting shortstop who makes $4 million. Bingo #3! I could see a Twins fan saying that about Hardy, except he actually was in the minors last year. Lets not forget, we didnt trade Cal Ripken, Jr. here. RyDogg, you and Invader are on a roll in this thread. So we're not resigning Cameron, and we're planning to have somewhere between two and four automatic outs in the batting order next year? Our ability to score runs has just taken a huge hit. Even with the God-awful offensive performances of Hardy, Kendall, and Hall, and the very mediocre performance of Hart the Brewers were 3rd in the NL in runs scored. The difference between Cam and Gomez offensively isn't going to make that much difference. Now they have Gamel/McGehee instead of Hall and it's likely that they'll get more than 37 games from Weeks. That will make up for a lot of the runs lost going from Cam to Gomez, and with the money saved the pitching should be better. Re: Lorenzo Cain Cain was hurt this year and did not pick up where he left off despite a very similar number of plate appearances at AA in 2009 as 2008. He is at least a year and a half away from the majors and needs to re-prove he can handle AA or above pitching. Maybe he packages Gamel and Salome for an established starter who's making a decent amount of money? That's my dark horse in this - Gamel, Salome, Peralta, and Rivas for Josh Johnson. Then buck up for Johnson.
"The passion is raw... but the hot dogs are cooked!" - ESPN announcer at Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest
"Somebody needed to shove a nice big Milwaukee's finest bratwurst into that dude's mouth. That, or a fist." Bill, a.k.a. "Batman", on Ronnie Woo-Woo's presence at Miller Park. |
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trwi7 |
#349 | |||
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Posts: 10287 November 6, 2009 11:26 PM |
LouisEly wrote:I feel the same way about Gomez. |
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AdvantageSchneider |
#350 | |||
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Posts: 832 November 6, 2009 11:37 PM |
I don't like the move, but I'll see what else Doug has going before I get too worked up.
Do you know what we need to acquire now? Those Japanese groundkeepers from Major League so they can curve Miller Park's IF so all of Gomez's bunt attempts go fair. If I see some of those dudes working at MP this winter then I know Doug's got a good plan. |
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bando1234 |
#351 | |||
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Posts: 175 November 6, 2009 11:48 PM |
Let me start out by saying I cant make up my mind on this trade. I have read all 18 pages(some posts I skimmed) I have read some scouting reports on Gomez
& I checked the web. I keep on reading about how great Gomez's defense is. I noticed he had 8 errors his rookie year. Maybe a fluke. Has an above
average arm. I was trying to think of a comparable hitter & one that came to mind is Mariano Duncan. Looks like he does better at the end of the lineup
than a leadoff hitter, which could probally be said of Escobar too.
I feel if Bowden was availavble he may have been the better choice. I think eventually this trade could be a wash but we may not see the upside for a year or two. The biggest thing that bugs me- I feel we have a manager & a GM who are not on the same page. Our GM wants our young guys to play but our manager likes the crafty vets. Our GM wants some speed in the lineup but our manager does not want to utilize it. |
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Tbadder |
#352 | |||
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Posts: 1764 November 7, 2009 12:07 AM |
I don't like the move one bit. While I believe he'll be a better defensive player than Cameron he's never really hit/OBP, so I can't see him
significantly improving--a leopard cannot change its spots. If I was going to take a risk I would have opted for a high ceiling A ball or AA pitcher for JJ.
I'm one of those guys who can't see the Crew really contending next year and had hoped the Melvin would have concentrated on maximizing our draft status. But he's turned down the chance to pick up a #2 for Cameron, and that will hurt as well. I'm wondering if the suggestion that JJ would've been non-tendered also means we won't offer arby to Lopez? I also think this means that Gamel probably has to go--which I think is a huge mistake and is really what is gonna get Melvin fired. I love Casey as a back up but he's not a 150 game performer by any means. As people correctly pointed out--there's just no pitching out there to truly make us better. And trading for good major league starters is going to cost us our best young players +, so what's the point? We'd just be tanking the franchise, but in a different way. If we get King Felix forget about what the Brewers truly need, a constant influx of young, cheap players, and if we get, which I suspect, Davis and another old stiff, we won't be significantly better anyways, especially since the offense is starting to be drained. And then there's Kendall. Putting Kendall in a line up that sports Gomez, Escobar, a regressing to the norm McGehee, a below average Hart, and an uncertain Weeks, and you've got an offense that will be lucky to finish in the top half.
Last Edited By: Tbadder November 7, 2009 12:10 AM.
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LouisEly |
#353 | |||
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Posts: 2289 November 7, 2009 12:27 AM |
And then there's Kendall. Putting Kendall in a line up that sports Gomez, Escobar, a regressing to the norm McGehee, a below average Hart, and an
uncertain Weeks, and you've got an offense that will be lucky to finish in the top half.
But essentially that same lineup ended up with the 3rd most runs scored in the NL. Gomez = Hall, Escobar = Hardy, McGehee = Cameron, Hart is the same, Weeks is the same, Kendall is the same. And that is worst case scenario as Gomez > Hall (probably equal to combined performance of Hall + Counsell), Escobar can't be worse than 2009 Hardy, Weeks is likely to play more than 37 games, and anyone can't be worse than 2009 Kendall - even Kendall. The sky ain't falling.
"The passion is raw... but the hot dogs are cooked!" - ESPN announcer at Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest
"Somebody needed to shove a nice big Milwaukee's finest bratwurst into that dude's mouth. That, or a fist." Bill, a.k.a. "Batman", on Ronnie Woo-Woo's presence at Miller Park. |
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nate82 |
#354 | |||
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Posts: 1693 November 7, 2009 12:31 AM |
I don't see Kendall coming back unless I missed something here. It is going to be either a FA signing or Lucroy/Salome splitting time with Rivera.
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monkeyman343434 |
#355 | |||
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Posts: 243 November 7, 2009 12:49 AM |
bando1234 wrote: This is exactly how I feel. I actually like the trade, but that's been beatin' on for the past 18 pages. The problem I see, has been aparent since Gamel was first called up in '09. Macha and Melvin do not see eye-to-eye on anything involving personel decisions it seems. The Brewers' need these young guys like Gamel, Escobar, LuCroy, Salome, etc to play key roles in future teams, we can't keep going out and getting veterans for Macha to play because it's just not affordable for the Brewers. I really think the possible starting 8 this coming year could look like : C - unknown/FA signee/Salome/LuCroy/hopefully not Kendall 1B - Fielder ; 2B - Weeks ; 3B - I wish Gamel, but probably McGehee ; SS - Escobar ; LF - Braun ; CF - Gomez ; RF - Geret/Hart platoon I think Geret has easily outperformed Hart over the past two years. Geret's numbers after the all-star break this past year were solid 279/.343/.459/.802. I'd also like to see Geret start a handful of games in CF vs righties, giving Hart a few starts vs righties as well. If you figure you get roughly 700 PA between both CF and RF that would total 1400 PA, each of the three could get roughly 450 PAs, with Geret getting all of his vs RHP and none vs LHP, allowing Gomez and Hart to see all of the lefties |
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berniebrewer4life |
#356 | |||
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Posts: 5136 November 7, 2009 12:57 AM |
trwi7 wrote:WOW, we were asking for Bard or Buchholz? Bard is probably going to replace Papelbon at closer in a year or two(kid has an amazing fastball), and Buchholz has a ton of upside. I respect Melvin for asking for that, but there is no way Hardy is worth either one. In 2007/2008 sure. But not after last season. As for Bowden(like someone else already said), if he was in any other system(save new york), he wouldn't be so highly regarded, IMO. I'm not a huge fan of this trade, but i'm going to wait and see what happens next. I don't like losing cam, but if it helps us getting a few pitchers, so be it.
"No wonder why you got fired from the Mets." ~John Kruk to Steve Phillips when he said something stupid on BBTN.
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brewers4eric |
#357 | |||
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Posts: 383 November 7, 2009 5:20 AM |
After reading the 18 page thread, I'm still undecided on the trade. I think it signals a change in the current Brewers hitting philosophy. The last
couple of years, we seemed to try to put a power guy at every position (aside from catcher) and swing for the fences. Now it looks like we are putting some
speed guys at a couple of positions and are hoping that they will get on base so that Fielder and Braun will hit more three run bombs than solo shots.
Gomez may be a fine defensive player but it is impossible to play defense on a 450 foot blast given up by Looper. A move like this is probably just a precursor to something bigger that obtains pitching. If we couldn't get an arm for Hardy, it is going to take more talent to pry someone loose (some combination of Hart, Gamel, Salome, Lawrie). Brace yourselves for an interesting offseason. Best of luck to JJ. I actually would have been interested to see how his defense would play in the Metrodome for 81 games. |
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Invader3K |
#358 | |||
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Posts: 6783 November 7, 2009 5:39 AM |
bobskube wrote:Just curious if that is based on something you've heard, or speculation at this point? Are you thinking they go after someone like John Lackey, or possibly a big trade target?
I have a blog! Revel in the mediocrity! The Mase
Place!
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ILuvDaBush |
#359 | |||
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Posts: 1047 November 7, 2009 5:46 AM Chris Berman's Apprentice |
Is it truly assured that we won't offer Cameron arbitration? He's bound to be in-line for a two year deal which would suit his pocketbook better than
our offer of only this year (and ask our newest acquisition about having 4 OF for three positions). He's only a type B FA, which means he wouldn't cost
any signing team their own draft pick while allowing us to recoup a supplemental pick as well.
As for Gomez himself, I'm excited for the introduction of speed to our lineup. Last year, who was a consistent threat on the bases? JJ couldn't hit a fastball if the pitcher didn't worry about getting the ball to home plate. Would I have preferred Ricky Nolasco? Yes. Would I have preferred Michael Bowden? No. Do I want to see Aaron Harang in Brewer blue now? Oh yeah. And it looks like a slight possibility now too. Yadier Molina v. Gomez/Escobar. Good times. |
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igor67 |
#360 | |||
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Posts: 5011 November 7, 2009 6:32 AM |
It is incorrect to say that we don't have enough info on Gomez. He's a super 2, which means essentially 2 full years of Major league ABs none of which
have been good compared to Hardy who has had well above average offensive years 2 of the last 3 seasons. And going from a well above average to defender to one
of the two best is not a major upgrade, it's a small upgrade. And yes Cameron was going to get much closer to average one of these years, but last year he
wasn't and it's last years contribution that we have to try and replace to gauge how well the team will do. Keeping him meant projecting only modest
age decline on offense and defense. On the offensive side were replacing Cameron with Billy Hall. Which incidently someone else listed above to incorrectly
argue the line-up would be about the same because they did not account for actually playing time last year, and then had McGee replacing someone else's
contribution even though he gave us 300 great ABs that weren't accounted for.
What about resigning Cameron to play RF? If your going to go defense why not go all out and get a better bat than Hart in the line-up? The marginal cost is only about 5 million. Would there be a better offense, defense combo RF out there? |
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