Based on what? That was never going to happen. The Mariners have no reason to move Hernandez. He almost had Peavy.
0 Kudo
JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez
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 endaround |
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#421 | ||
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Posts: 14401 November 8, 2009 8:07 AM |
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 JJHardy7 |
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#422 | ||
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Posts: 2612 November 8, 2009 8:12 AM |
Prince Fielder was up for the Brewers from mid June until early July. He started just 5 games in almost a month of time and sat on the bench and PH the
rest of the time. He then came up again in mid August until the end of the season and only started 2 games that entire time. He was in the majors for 58 games,
over 1/3 of the season and got 62 PA in those games. I don't see how that isn't worse than what happened with Gamel this year.
How many September games was he up? 25+? I think if you take that into account it's a different scenario IMO. At the time Gamel was called up there, 3B was somewhat of a question. We knew 1B was Lyle's job when Prince was called up. I will agree it wasn't handled the best way, but I just think that the Gamel thing was worse than Fielder. Maybe expectations for the team had something to do with that as well? |
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DHonks |
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#423 | ||
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Posts: 11542 November 8, 2009 10:30 AM |
I'm going to view the offseason in its totality. That is, if these moves (no Hardy and no Cameron) free up $12-15 million to sign 1-2 pitchers, then I
think the trades are effective.
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thebruce44 |
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#424 | ||
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Posts: 1470 November 8, 2009 10:38 AM |
Ennder wrote:And half of Prince's time in the bigs that season was as a September call up. Are you contending that it would have been better for his development to sit at home on his couch than on the bench in MKE for 29 of those 58 games? And if you leave Weeks in AAA OPSing around 1.100, you are going to have an upset prospect on your hands. He hit his way onto the team just like Braun did. For all the press on Hardy being sent to AAA to gain back a year of service time, I think it would be even worse to leave a player who is destroying AAA pitching down there just to get an extra year of service for a bad team.
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Invader3K |
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#425 | ||
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Posts: 6793 November 8, 2009 11:15 AM |
I think part of the thinking with Prince was that he couldn't really learn much more in the minors, and I think organizations like to get their players
"acclimated" to the big league club environment. Anyway, judging by Fielder's career so far, I think it's hard to argue that he was
mishandled in any way. Results are what count.
I have a blog! Revel in the mediocrity! The Mase
Place!
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Ennder |
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#426 | ||
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Posts: 8282 November 8, 2009 11:27 AM |
So Gamel was up for 57 games before September callup time and got 141 PA and people are up in arms about it. Fielder was up for 29 games before September
callup time and got 34 PA. Still not seeing a big difference here.
As for Weeks, I don't think you are obligated to bring up any prospects after just 249 PA in AAA regardless of their stats, especially one that is defensively deficient and working on it still. Not to mention the fact he did not destroy AA in any way shape or form the previous season. |
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splitterpfj |
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#427 | ||
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Posts: 4161 November 8, 2009 12:19 PM Brewerfan.net Moderator |
I'm happy to see Gomez in the Brewers' organization, I like his physical skills that much. The thing is, he's shown nothing that makes me think
he's ready to hit in the big leagues right now. OK, he may have been rushed up the ladder, and last year he found
himself on the bench in Minnesota, so perhaps he does better this year with regular playing time, etc - but no one can be sure of that, his OBP hasn't been
weak, it has been terrible to this point.
Teams guess wrong sometimes, maybe Gomez will come back to haunt the Mets and the Twins...Jason Bay was traded three times as a minor leaguer - once, with a second player - for Lou Collier. Even so, until he proves he can reach first base, I'm going to hold to my, "The Brewers finally got their Juan Pierre, Dave Roberts fast guy" conclusion. Yes, Gomez has more power potential than those players, I completely agree with that, but so far this is another guy who can run like the wind, but who's OBP is entirely linked to the number of base hits he gets...which limits his greatest asset, which is his fantastic speed. In addition, to this point, Gomez has been caught stealing on 26% of his attempts...to truly maximize those legs, that also must improve. If you're getting on base 29.6% of the time, and you're being caught stealing 26% of the time...your speed is not helping your team nearly as much as it appears to be in the highlight reel. The potential is there for certain, a former major leaguer recently told me Carlos can hit it out to right-center, so yes, there is some pop in that bat...but you've got to be able to reach first base...a career OBP of .296 is just plain embarrassing. Carlos, at a combine workout, I think any scout in the world would recommend you immediately...I'm rooting for you, but you've got to sell me.
If you don't got Mojo Nixon, then your store could use some fixinnnnnnnnnn!
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brewmann04 |
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#428 | ||
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Posts: 4473 November 8, 2009 12:25 PM |
i was curious was Prince brought up and used almost exclusivly as a ph
Last Edited By: brewmann04 November 8, 2009 5:00 PM.
Edited 1 time.
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JJHardy7 |
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#429 | ||
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Posts: 2613 November 8, 2009 12:26 PM |
So Gamel was up for 57 games before September callup time and got 141 PA and people are up in arms about it. Fielder was up for 29 games before September
callup time and got 34 PA. Still not seeing a big difference here.
Gamel struggled with the lack of playing time...that was pretty clear IMO. And at the time Gamel was called up there was an 'opening' at 3B. The Brewers called up Prince for different reasons. |
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Fatter than Joey |
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#430 | ||
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Posts: 7643 November 8, 2009 1:10 PM Pure Yostian Hatred |
The thing is, he's shown nothing that makes me think he's ready to hit in the big leagues right now.
Exactly. I am not sure what Gomez has done for people to expect he will have the starting CF job given to him. |
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Ennder |
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#431 | ||
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Posts: 8284 November 8, 2009 3:29 PM |
Exactly. I am not sure what Gomez has done for people to expect he will have the starting CF job given to him. Played some of the best OF defense in all of baseball would probably be the reason. His hitting improved last year as well, even if the slash stats don't show it. Thats not to say he won't play his way out of the job though.
Last Edited By: Ennder November 8, 2009 3:59 PM.
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thebruce44 |
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#432 | ||
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Posts: 1471 November 8, 2009 4:33 PM |
Ennder wrote: If you don't see a difference between 57 games and 29 games, then I think you are just sticking with your opinion no matter what other information is presented to you. We will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of Prince being rushed. Same with Weeks.
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Ennder |
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#433 | ||
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Posts: 8285 November 8, 2009 5:15 PM |
If you don't see a difference between 57 games and 29 games, then I think you are just sticking with your opinion no matter what other information is presented to you. We will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of Prince being rushed. Same with Weeks. I could say the same from not seeing the difference between 2.5 PA per game and 1 PA per game. Gamel played half time while he was up, Fielder rotted on the bench as a pinch hitter. Just because my opinion is different than yours does not mean it isn't based on reasonable assumptions and I'm just sticking to my guns besides information saying I'm wrong. No such information has been supplied. Btw, I don't think Gamel was handled properly either. Just saying Fielder went through basically the same situation. |
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sbrylski06 |
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#434 | ||
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Posts: 6582 November 8, 2009 5:42 PM |
Ennder wrote:Fielder spent most of his time in the bigs after the minor league season was over. He didn't play because we had a good fan favorite who needed to hold his trade value. Gamel was up at random times throughout the entire season, never really getting consistent playing time, despite having no obvious vet starter that needed to be playing. They are quite different situations, IMO. Hardy was brought up too early. I don't agree about Prince. We should have saved a service year with Weeks, but that has nothing to do with player development - he mashed once he was called up. His wrist injury has nothing to do with the call-up. Anything can happen, and it probably will.
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silversurferr |
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#435 | ||
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Posts: 243 November 8, 2009 5:42 PM |
They misused Gamel last year by getting him so few AB's when he was up. Of course, McGahee was on fire and getting most of playing time. In hindsight, they
should have sent him down. Next year, they should start him or trade him. I would like to see him in RF.
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derflotr |
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#436 | ||
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Posts: 404 November 8, 2009 7:54 PM |
This trade has grown on me a bit...at first I was in the "that's it?" crowd, but it sounds like the guy is a fantastic defensive CF, which is
just as important of a defensive position as SS in my opinion...if the guy can post a .320ish OBP with full-time ABs at the bottom of the order and limit the
mistakes on the basepaths he'll be a big asset - not only for next season, but for many in the future. If Gamel is kept (or McGehee, I guess) the Brewers
once again have very good, high-ceiling young talent in the lineup. They may miss Cameron's bat in the lineup but if it means the pitching can be improved
it's worth the loss. And this creates great flexibility in the payroll considering what Cameron is worth and whatever Hardy would've gotten. I'm
not really pulling for a John Lackey signing, but if there are no better alternatives it's a very realistic possibility.
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ELCABALLO45 |
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#437 | ||
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Posts: 3125 November 8, 2009 7:55 PM |
Fatter than Joey wrote:Because no one is even close to matching him on defense in center, and its not even close. "It's what he does" - Brian Anderson, after another Ryan Braun game winner |
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Ennder |
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#438 | ||
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Posts: 8286 November 8, 2009 9:05 PM |
Fielder spent most of his time in the bigs after the minor league season was over. This simply is not true though. The PCL season ended on Sept 5th in 2005. Fielder was up for 42 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 42 games he started in 5 of them. Fielder spent 37 games in 2005 as a pinch hitter or pure bench warmer for the Brewers before Nashville's season was even over. Gamel was up for 58 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 58 games Gamel started in 29 of them, he was used as a PH or pure bench guy for 29 games. Fielder burned up almost 1/3 of a season of service time to be a pinch hitter for a team that at best aspired to luck into a .500 record. Even if you completely ignore the september callup time Fielder 'wasted' more games on the bench in 2005 than Gamel did last year. I guess it was just long enough ago that people don't remember it now. |
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Klements Bratwurst |
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#439 | ||
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Posts: 582 November 8, 2009 9:57 PM |
After reading the majority of this thread, I thought I would reminisce on Brewerfan.net's thoughts on the big Santana trade in the winter of 2008. This
thread in all six of its pages doesn't show much love for Gomez or general excitement
for the Twins return package of Guerra, Gomez, Melvey, and Humber. Quite frankly, there wasn't much discussion about Carlos Gomez as stud prospect. Also,
ignoring the other players, no one in that 2008 thread stated that Gomez is the centerpiece of the deal from the Twins perspective in their trade away of Johan
Santana. Some people liked his AA and his AAA lines, as has been discussed in this thread. Others compared him to being a better player than Tony Gwynn, Jr,
but less than Adam Jones (I agree).
"That is selling things a bit short, looking at minorleagueball.com. Gomez is still considered a B to B+ prospect where Gwynn is more of a C to C+."
"And not to pile on too much, but comparing Gwynn to Gomez is really funny."
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MNBrew |
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#440 | ||
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Posts: 867 November 8, 2009 10:24 PM |
Ennder wrote:Ennder, you got one thing right for sure: Gomez's defense is unbelievable. He really is that good. The thing is, Gomez's hitting DIDN'T improve last year. It got worse. He LOST the starting CF job because of his offense. If he had improved, he would've played much more, especially when Delmon Young DIDN'T produce much through July. How can you possibly suggest Gomez improved offensively? When the Twins finally had Span starting in CF everyday, it was still Delmon Young starting everyday in LF. Gomez had clearly played his way OUT of the OF starting "rotation," if you will, that Gardenhire was forced to deal with all year since he started with 5 (at the time) starting-caliber OFs and 4 positions to share between them (3 OFs + DH). By the end of the year, there were 4 clear starters and then 1 guy who didn't deserve to start, and so he didn't: Gomez. Anyone who pays attention to the Twins up here knows Gomez got worse last year. Even the Twins' Group Sales woman I deal with suggested when I called her Friday afternoon (to line up our groups sales purchase) that Gomez has great skills but can be a real knucklehead at times. That's pretty much common knowledge amongst attentive Twins fans. All that said, I sure hope the guy does make improvements at the plate commensurate with his God-given talent & the level of his other skills (speed, defense). One September game I took one of my sons to, we got there early enough to watch a lot of the pre-game stretching/sprinting/catch down the LF line. Gomez was practicing swerving twist routes at devastating speeds. How fast this guy is is truly unbelievable. One thing that was indicative of the Gomez's failures to improve this year was that in '08 he had plenty of bunt singles, but this year the season was more than half over before he got his first bunt single. Gomez has a little bit of pop in his bat. But he & his team are truly best served if he NEVER EVER thinks about trying to hit a HR for the rest of his life. Hopefully he doesn't suffer from the "headstrong & foolish" delusion about hitting with any power -- a combination that plagued Alex Sanchez & eventually earned him his ticket out of town. |
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