JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez

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thebruce44		#441	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1472 November 8, 2009 10:36 PM	Ennder wrote: Fielder spent most of his time in the bigs after the minor league season was over. This simply is not true though. The PCL season ended on Sept 5th in 2005. Fielder was up for 42 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 42 games he started in 5 of them. Fielder spent 37 games in 2005 as a pinch hitter or pure bench warmer for the Brewers before Nashville's season was even over. Gamel was up for 58 Brewer games while the PCL was still playing games. Out of those 58 games Gamel started in 29 of them, he was used as a PH or pure bench guy for 29 games. Fielder burned up almost 1/3 of a season of service time to be a pinch hitter for a team that at best aspired to luck into a .500 record. Even if you completely ignore the september callup time Fielder 'wasted' more games on the bench in 2005 than Gamel did last year. I guess it was just long enough ago that people don't remember it now. No, I remember it quite clearly. When Prince was up the first time, he did play and was used appropriately. When he was called up half a month before Sept. callups, the Brewers said he had nothing left to learn at AAA so they thought it would be to his advantage to be in the MLB clubhouse. It didn't hurt his development in any way and didn't upset his service time. Completely different situation than Gamel. You obviously don't see it the way I do and I didn't mean to imply you were wrong because you were disagreeing. I just don't think the situations are even close and I don't think Melvin has a history of rushing prospects at all. The Shirt Alert - Funny Sayings Shirts: Shirts/Hoodies/Longsleeves about movies/tv/sports. New site now up. Funny Brewers Shirts!
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Ennder		#442	[url]	[-]
Posts: 8287 November 9, 2009 7:19 AM	The thing is, Gomez's hitting DIDN'T improve last year. It got worse. He LOST the starting CF job because of his offense. If he had improved, he would've played much more, especially when Delmon Young DIDN'T produce much through July. How can you possibly suggest Gomez improved offensively? His K rate improved, his BB rate improved, his LD% improved. His swing% at pitches out of the zone improved. The main thing that drove his bad season was a low BABIP which given his GB% and speed and improved LD% was just luck. His HR% was down a little as well but that is a stat that fluctuates a lot as well, especially when 1 HR can make such a huge difference given the sample. The slash stats don't always tell the real story over a small sample.
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BrewerBrent		#443	[url]	[-]
Posts: 51 November 9, 2009 11:36 AM	Has it been stated anywhere that the brewers are not going to offer Cameron arbitration? Is there really any downside to doing it other than the chance that he accepts? Cameron seems like a straight shooter and by now knows that CF in Milwaukee is not his job anymore. He's always said how much he's appreciated the straight-forward way in which Doug Melvin does business. I'm wondering if it makes sense to offer him arbitration with a gentlemanly agreement for Cameron to decline thus resulting in the brewers picking up a supplemental pick. Is there any downside for Cameron agreeing to this, since being a type-B, any team that signs him won't have to forfeit a pick and he won't end up in a Orlando Hudson-esque situation
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filthyfrog		#444	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1538 November 9, 2009 11:42 AM	I'm wondering if it makes sense to offer him arbitration with a gentlemanly agreement for Cameron to decline thus resulting in the brewers picking up a supplemental pick. I don't think there has to be any sort of agreement between them. Melvin just needs to tell Cameron that he won't be the starter and that if he accepts arbitration, Melvin will try to trade him. No one would accept arbitration under those circumstances unless they had no chance of earning a similar salary elsewhere, which doesn't apply to Cam.
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thebruce44		#445	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1473 November 9, 2009 1:07 PM	Plus, if Cam goes somewhere else, he will be looking for a 2 year deal. It doesn't make sense for him to take a 1 year deal when he wont play unless he just wants to stick it to the Brewers. The Shirt Alert - Funny Sayings Shirts: Shirts/Hoodies/Longsleeves about movies/tv/sports. New site now up. Funny Brewers Shirts!
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BADGERJOBOB		#446	[url]	[-]
Posts: 116 November 9, 2009 1:08 PM	We didn't save $14 million by trading JJ for Gomez. We could of saved $8-10 million by simply keeping JJ and not signing Cameron. Gerut could man centerfield just fine. What we did was save whatever difference in salary between JJ and Gomez. Hardly a $14 million savings. The problem that I have and most others have here is that if JJ could only get a no-hit, non walking centerfielder who has potential down the road, then why not package him with some other players and get a legit player in return? I would think everyone other than Braun, Fielder and Yo would be available for trade. Gomez in and by himself, is not going to make this team any better this year or next and now we have one less chip to trade for what we really need pitching since the free agent pitching market is hardly stellar.
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RobertR		#447	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5025 November 9, 2009 3:00 PM Brewerfan.net Moderator	Boy Jeenius wrote: We had 2 shortstops and needed only 1. Traded one who got beat out for the starting job for a young starting CF with plus speed and plus arm. Taking out the fact that as a fan, I loved watching JJ play, it's a solid, solid move. Plain and simple. That's also taking out the fact that Gomez hasn't hit a lick at the major league level, while Hardy put up a couple of seasons that put him among the top 10 offensively at SS as well as a plus glove. (Not 2009 obviously.) If Gomez improves, then yeah it's a justifiable move, but if he stays bad then they just gave away talent. That's not a solid move. You want to move talent for talent in this specific circumstance. Shortstop is not a position where there's a glut of talent around the majors. For that matter, I don't like the idea that because there are multiple outcomes, each outcome is equally likely to happen. That's part of my rationale in not liking the deal. I think the most likely outcome is that Hardy bounces back to be valuable with the bat and glove and Gomez never becomes valuable with the bat. Robert ``In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love--they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.'' -Orson Welles as Harry Lime in THE THIRD MAN Last Edited By: RobertR November 9, 2009 3:04 PM. Edited 1 time.
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brewizard		#448	[url]	[-]
Posts: 957 November 9, 2009 3:56 PM	I think the team mishandled Hardy when he was rushed to the majors in 2005. Hardy flat out sucked in his first half a season, and we are all lucky it didn't ruin his confidence completely. Hardy did manage to turn it around the second half of his rookie year, got hot, and he showed flashes of his offense to come. Hardy's second season, 2006, could have gone either way, but he was injured on a play at home in May. He only played a month and a half and never got hot. 2007 and 2008, Hardy was one of the core players of the team. He had cold streaks, but he had incredible hot streaks. He was the only player that stayed consistent at the end of 2008 - when the team seemed like they were falling apart - and he was one of the the only players on the team to perform well during the short playoff series. Hardy was a very good player for the Brewers during that stretch. But the colossal mistake in the general mishandling of Hardy was holding pat last offseason - by NOT either signing him to a long-term deal or trading him. Hardy's trade value was never going to be higher than it was last offseason. Either choice - trading Escobar or Hardy - would have been better than holding pat. I do think Hardy's poor 2009 was related to the fact that the team wasn't committed to him. He had said he wanted to be a Brewer, but the trade rumors were swirling from the beginning of 2009, and people kept asking Hardy about it, and I think it messed him up. I think he played worried. And I don't think sending him to AAA helped his trade value. And now, we have Escobar and Gomez. Like it or lump it. I personally lump it.
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JohnBriggs12		#449	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6514 November 9, 2009 4:22 PM	How bad a defensive CF must Jason Bourgeois be? He must be really, really bad, because he was released while they trade a guy 2 years removed from starting the All Star game for a guy who isn't nearly as good offensively as Bourgeois. Gomez is 6'4" 215 lbs and he's shown almost no power and no plate discipline. About the only argument for him was that he hasn't produced because he was rushed through the minors. I hope he has an option left, because he needs a year at AAA in my opinion. This one could cost several jobs including Melvin and Macha.
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sbrylski06		#450	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6584 November 9, 2009 4:33 PM	Briggs, at age 23, Jason Bourgeois put up a AAA line of .240 / .301 / .317 / .618. Anything can happen, and it probably will.
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kramnoj		#451	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1555 November 9, 2009 9:27 PM	Gerut could man centerfield just fine. Gerut may be able to man CF just fine, but we don't want him facing LHP with his career .642 OPS. As bad as Gomez has been, he would be a better option, both at the plate and in the field against lefties. Now if all Gomez is is a short side platoon player and 4th OF, that would be a dreadful return for Hardy. Gerut has had good years, but he did only OPS .660 last year in his ABs with the platoon advantage. It would have been fairly risky to just hand Jody the CF job without having a backup plan. Gomez isn't confidence inspiring as either Plan A or B, but Melvin is taking a calculated risk.
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bklynbrewcrew		#452	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1515 November 10, 2009 9:45 AM	Just to make matters worse I was told that Melvin was offered Harang for Hardy but didnt want to trade JJ within the division.
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kramnoj		#453	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1557 November 10, 2009 10:42 AM	TH wrote that in his blog. It would be disappointing if Melvin passed up a good deal to avoid trading within the division, but I don't think a year or two of Harang with his contract is really a better return than what Gomez could potentially offer. Harang would then have been the prime pitching acquisition, and I'm guessing that Melvin is hoping for somebody better.
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RockCoCougars		#454	[url]	[-]
Posts: 859 November 10, 2009 11:05 AM	I'd rather have Gomez than Harang unless the Reds were willing to eat a huge chunk of his contract.
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bklynbrewcrew		#455	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1517 November 10, 2009 12:05 PM	I would far rather have Harang than Gomez. As of this moment Gomez isnt even a major league offensive player while Harang is a quality innings eater.
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Mr QL		#456	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1137 November 10, 2009 2:43 PM	We could of had Harang too?!?! Jeez. Melvin really blew this one. SHOUSE
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sheethead		#457	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2285 November 10, 2009 3:03 PM	I would far rather have Harang than Gomez. As of this moment Gomez isnt even a major league offensive player while Harang is a quality innings eater. Where have I heard this before? The Brewers don't really need another eight figure innings eater. Tanaka: You have no... you have no... marbles! You have no marbles! Cerrano: Marbles? Huevos?
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vannzee52		#458	[url]	[-]
Posts: 45 November 10, 2009 3:11 PM	http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pbc/archive/2009/11/10/conditioning-camp-day-1-pirates-offered-capps-to-brewers-in-trade.aspx Havent seen this posted yet. Matt Capps was offered for Hardy.
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sheethead		#459	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2286 November 10, 2009 3:29 PM	Havent seen this posted yet. Matt Capps was offered for Hardy. More evidence of how low Hardy's value was. Tanaka: You have no... you have no... marbles! You have no marbles! Cerrano: Marbles? Huevos?
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Hate those Rodents		#460	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1258 November 10, 2009 3:34 PM	Capps is not a guy I'd want closing games for us, nor would I imagine any contending team would. So I too would have passed on that deal. Harang I probably would have chosen over Gomez though, although I again say we need to see how we spend our money to help the rotation before we can assess this trade.
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JJ Hardy to Twins for Carlos Gomez

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